beaconchurches

OK, after posting my thread about Dr. Medley's visit to a AWAB congregation, including direct quotes from the AWAB association e-newsletter, several people took me to the woodshed for a whuppin'. Several Baptist loyalists complained about my post on a number of lines of argument, including the fact that it was no longer any of my business. Honestly, I had almost begun to feel guilty and had cobbled together a detente with the progressive Baptist pastor who objected to my actions the loudest. As long as the ABC doesn't bother TM, maybe I should shut my mouth as an "outsider" (sorry Art, I know your comments about who is "disloyal to the family" but that is how it was put to me).

Well, as they say "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

This afternoon a pastor of a very large Transformation Ministries congregation called to thank me for my post. An ABC representative had been working very hard to convince him to reallign with the ABC. "All is changed. Everything is 'cleaned up,'" he reported being told. "All of the gays have been put off the boards and committees in the denomination . . . It's time to come back home."

In this particular case, the pastor was touched enough by the representations that he took the good news to his board for their judgment on reaffiliation. They ultimately decided not to return to the ABC fold again. Then, my post was forwarded to him by one of his members. "Dennis, thank you for the confirmation. When I read your piece which was mainly quotes from Dr. Medley's visit by them, I knew that we did the right thing."

Hmmmmm. That is interesting for a couple of reasons. One of the nearby ABC Executive Ministers has always denied that there were ever any gays on boards or committees of the ABC, even when confronted with documentary evidence to the contrary. So, if there were not any, why did they have to "get rid of" them? Have you ever heard of the ABC "getting rid" of anybody for any reason? Yes, a couple of years ago the EMs agreed to take serious thought to the resolution on human sexuality when appointing people to the GB and denominational committees. But, that weak "agreement" certainly cannot be counted as a "cleaning up of the mess"??? Second, who authorized someone(s) to go to TM congregations and use "creative" spin to win back congregations? If this is part of a concerted campaign, doesn't the denomination need to play by the common conventions of truthtelling? And, third, is it even true that any "housecleaning" has gone on or is this part of some deceptive propaganda effort?

TM has played this situation quite ethically and honorably. I have been greatly impressed by Dr. Salico's restraint and refusal to give "back in kind" for things that have been done and said.

Do any of you have information to help verify or falsify the stories that are being circulated in the TM regarding VF "cleaning up" and living by the resolution that "homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching"??? If anyone has accurate information, it would be most appreciated. Despite my general scepticism, I do not want to bear false witness against sisters and brothers if indeed there has been a general revival and wholesale repentance among ABC leadership.

If there has been, it hasn't trickled down to us common church members yet.

Our region is restructuring and eliminating many paid positions. I would think that if there had been a wholesale housecleaning and revival, instead of that, they would be out beating the bushes with evidence trying to get those of us who aren't paying in to pay in again and for those churches that have left, to come on back.

What I have seen recently is a former missionary resigning from our ABWM area group in protest of the fact that the mess is not only there but when she went to talk to the region folks, they wouldn't listen. Her church pulled out. She still visits our area ABWM meetings but won't be counted as she is not one of our member church members.

My pastor was ordained in ABC over 20 years ago and then left ABC when the region he was in previously went with the VF line. He took an independent church and when he left there, he was hit up by the ABC folks and given the line that all was better, the gays were gone, VF and the region were working for the kingdom. He bought the line, was hired by us and then found out the mess was carefully being hidden under a rug.

Calculated deception to bring more numbers back to the fold and money into the coffers. That's my opinion.

D,
After looking at those AWAB's website newsletter links, they seem to be celebrating many positive movements and inroads. I'm visiting the East Coast and they seem alive and well. *sigh*
They don't seem at all disenfranchised to me but appear revitalized and invigorated to the ABC direction. Think your instincts are correct.
c.

Hi Ehart,
Actually, I was the guy who told him that the "issue" would not be an issue. I promised that the regional leadership would not betray him, the Bible or your church. I wasn't lieing. But as you know I was profoundly wrong. Please accept my humble apologies.
In dysfunctional families there are always three groups. Those who know what is wrong and refuse to accept it. Those who deny that anything is wrong and will protect the dysfunction. But the third group just wants peace.
That third group almost always placates the dysfunctional forces. And later after those who recognize the problem have been branded as trouble makers, secessionists, rude...its a long list. See Baptist life for a full illustration... - only after they have been marginalized out of the family does the middle group come to the realization that those who left were not the problem. The problem remains to be faced. And they will face it again...
So, for ABC, the problem in the VF system remains. Those who protested have been marginalized out. And those who want to stay in the VF system will soon discover that nothing has really changed. Only next time a different set of churches will be pushed out. This has been happening for decades. We now have 1/3 of the churches that we had when I became part of the family. That is to say that only 1/3 the number of churches connected to the VF system are still in the VF system.
There are many churches that remain part of the family, but do not support the VF system, have no hope for its revival, and have nothing but prayers for grace for those caught in it. Like people, there are lots of good churches in the system. When they discover that the dysfunction has just been lying low for a more opportune time, they will need folks in the family to reach out to. And with in the ABC family there are plenty out there. That good people trying to save the VF system should represent it as healed from its past nonsense is not a work of evil. Good people in dysfunctional systems are compromised. The system sets them up for failure and often they do not recognize it.
So for representatives from VF to suggest that reform has taken place is not deception. But (as I was) it is very mistaken. And we needn't be taken in by it.
Art

Art,

My pastor has never named names or been specific but from the way he has worded his comment about being told the "issue" was gone, I had assumed it was the area minister he had at the time or the Region Exec and not you. He had, after all, already applied to have his ordination reinstated when you and I first met him.

No appologies needed. I lived in the deception from 1987 till you brought the first batch of profiles that there were no homosexuals allowed in any Baptist church anywhere on the planet. After you brought that first batch of profiles, I nearly went home, resigned from the search committee and went on a search for a different church.

One-third of the churches. That's really sad. Especially when you consider that they want to count noses and then wonder why the giving is down instead of listening to the people. The region restructuring is just another example of the denial. They want to blame the people for not giving and can't see that the reason some of our churches don't give is because we don't approve of what is being done with it.

I do agree with your assessment of disfunctionality. I just wonder which group of us will be marginalized next.

chip wrote:D,
After looking at those AWAB's website newsletter links, they seem to be celebrating many positive movements and inroads. I'm visiting the East Coast and they seem alive and well. *sigh*
They don't seem at all disenfranchised to me but appear revitalized and invigorated to the ABC direction. Think your instincts are correct.
c.

I went back to the AWAB website after a few months away myself several days ago. I learned that they have grown in my part of the country.

ehart wrote:I just wonder which group of us will be marginalized next.

That's easy--the most conservative. A couple of years ago they might have been described as "middle-right," but now that the troublesome "right-wingers" are gone, they have become the new right wing of the organization. It'll probably take a couple of decades for the marginalization to be complete enough for them to leave though. Of course, it could be accelerated. That's Art's stuff. He's a whole lot better at the "when."

Jon,

How true! When one checks out what the AWAB people are celebrating on their site, it is a raft of good news about greater openness to their message in the ABC. And, against those denominational interpreters who have been saying that AWAB does not really mean what conservatives say it does, here are the four points from a recent editorial by Rev. Ken Pennings, ED of AWAB. The following is a summary of what AWAB considers to be a description of a truly Welcoming and Affirming congregation. I edited it down to posting length, but added NO words, only bolding the statistic at the end.

Hopefully, the following is true of your congregation:
1) LGBT people are welcomed as full members of the church.
"I long for the day in Baptist congregations all across America when it’s no surprise at all when same-gender-loving couples walk forward hand-in-hand in response to an invitation to join the church."

2) LGBT couples may have union ceremonies (or marriages in Massachusetts & California) performed by the senior staff of the church in the sanctuary.

3) An LGBT church member responding to God’s call to professional Christian ministry is supported and encouraged in her call, and is free to pursue licensing and ordination through the church. The church also champions her cause with the local association and larger region.
"If God is calling you, an openly gay person, to pursue professional Christian ministry, persist in finding a Baptist church that will support your call. There are churches in a number of geographic regions of the United States where you will be able to pursue your call."

4) An openly Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Transgender person might be hired as senior pastor of the church.
"Over twenty AWAB congregations have hired openly gay clergy for senior and/or associate positions".

Source: The Inspiriter newsletter of the Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists (http://www.wabaptists.org/inspiriter/TIS2008SP.pdf)

Hmmmmm. No wonder officials in the denomination are saying that things are "cleaned up" and that there are no problems anymore since the denomination is honoring the GB resolution that "homesexuality is incompatible with Christian practice." BTW, several of the pastors of AWAB churches are prominent in the denomination and have been treated with great deference and respect by national leadership, serving on numerous committees and boards.

My question remains: does anyone have any information on whether these folks are still in leadership roles in ABC or whether there has indeed been a "house cleaning"? I don't have a list of GB members and the churches they hail from. But, if someone does and can cross-check it with the list of AWAB congregations, it would be pretty simple to verify or falsify the claim. Rev. Heather Rittenhouse and Rev. Kevin Rose where long time AWAB activists and long time members of the ABC GB. I suspect that they both have rotated off by now???

Again, I am ONLY "back in the game" due to evidently active efforts of ABC disinformation of TM congregations which makes it "my business" as a TM person. In response to the loyal ABC friend who asked me to "quit stalking" the ABC, saying I "lost" my right to dialog about the ABC due to withdrawing . . .
Well, yes, I will be happy to go back into my hole as soon as the denomination's representatives quit lying to pastor friends of mine.

Board's and Committees are tough. Even if there were a cleaning of the house, "a new era" so to speak, if the new guard has the old guard mentality, they can easily go on to say, "Come on guys, give us a break--look at the mess we inherited, and look at what we have to work with!". Blame shifting is easy with a new system. Years of more of the same is expected. Change is tough and needs courage. I see the current administration has neither the skill, the will, nor the desire to make the radical changes to shift directions.

I like Art's breakdown of how people can react to a troubled organization.

The funny thing too about defunctifying funky boards is what you stack your board with. You can put people in there who vote the ideological line. You can place people in who are just "cute little old ladies" (and that person can be 25 years old!) who are just happy to have such an honored position and go with the flow, or you can just rotate people (a real good trick is to rotate spouses!). "Change" is tough in an "old first" church. I think the denomination is a macrocosm of the typical old first church. Call me skeptical, but even if Dennis hears that names are changing, I would want to hear who the names are and what's their stories too.

Folks if a Baptist system will chuck an important principle like "biblical authority", then thou bess take hold of another principle like practicing "church autonomy". As I always blather, "Autonomy has a double edge--watch out to the way you cling to it". The very thing the hierarchs are clinging to may cut up the organization into factions.
Most are for unity and diversity too, just not at any price.

ONLY "over twenty"? I honestly thought it would be more. I regularly get the sense more homosexuals are seeking ordination than that. It may just be that there is a woman who is a member of my church from childhood who recently moved back from Florida with her girlfriend. It seems that in her ABC-USA church in Florida she held a pastoral position of some sort. She certainly mentions having had opportunities to preach. She was clear at our first meeting that, even though she is a long-time member of the church, the reason she can is because we are ABC, and she appreciated her "Welcoming and Affirming church in Florida".

As to Dennis' question: I'll know in a few weeks if the ABCNJ rep. from an AWAB church is still on the board. I suspect she is.

Again, I am ONLY "back in the game" due to evidently active efforts of ABC disinformation of TM congregations which makes it "my business" as a TM person. In response to the loyal ABC friend who asked me to "quit stalking" the ABC, saying I "lost" my right to dialog about the ABC due to withdrawing . . .
Well, yes, I will be happy to go back into my hole as soon as the denomination's representatives quit lying to pastor friends of mine.

Actually this is what frosts my cake the most. Dennis is still a part of my ABC family. Who gets to define what that family is? When I define the family, Dennis, you never left. The only reason why you would want to define yourself out is to seperate from the VF dysfunction. Still what every your call is, who gives folks in the VF system the right to define our family? It's like the abusive parent saying to the abused runaway, "not only are you no child of mine, but I forbid the rest of your brothers and sisters to treat you like family too."
So anyone who says you don't have the right to comment on some part of the family, is simply too arrogant, abusive and mean spirited to take seriously.
One of the byproducts of trying to marginalize the West coast off the map is that the marginalizers simply matter less all the time. It is they who become irrelevant to the conversation.
And given the penchant the left shown lately for intolerance of open and free speech, while they themselves express anger, and name calling in place of rational discussion, it is no wonder they do not want you Dennis, to comment. Your communication has been rational measured and often gracious beyond measure.
Remember, those who are lying to the pastors you are related to do not represent the family. They represent only a dwindling portion of the family. They try to own the family and the tighter they clench their fist, the more churches quietly slip out.
So, as a brother in this family, I say, post away. Let those who hate free speech start by censoring themselves. (My mind is drawn to Paul's wish for folks troubling the Galatians, but I really do mean for their speech to fall off.) So long as they are talking, people of integrity will continue to set the record straight.
love,
the happy little bear

ehart wrote:If there has been, it hasn't trickled down to us common church members yet.

Our region is restructuring and eliminating many paid positions. I would think that if there had been a wholesale housecleaning and revival, instead of that, they would be out beating the bushes with evidence trying to get those of us who aren't paying in to pay in again and for those churches that have left, to come on back.

What I have seen recently is a former missionary resigning from our ABWM area group in protest of the fact that the mess is not only there but when she went to talk to the region folks, they wouldn't listen. Her church pulled out. She still visits our area ABWM meetings but won't be counted as she is not one of our member church members.

My pastor was ordained in ABC over 20 years ago and then left ABC when the region he was in previously went with the VF line. He took an independent church and when he left there, he was hit up by the ABC folks and given the line that all was better, the gays were gone, VF and the region were working for the kingdom. He bought the line, was hired by us and then found out the mess was carefully being hidden under a rug.

Calculated deception to bring more numbers back to the fold and money into the coffers. That's my opinion.

Ehart:

I assume that you are talking about the Central Region. I have been a pastor in CR for almost 9 years. I too have been very disappointed with the response of our Region in the midst of this turmoil. I am certain that the sharp decline of financial support from the churches to ABCCR (including ours) is because we are not going to support the theologically liberal agenda of VF that is upheld by our Region.

One question that I have pondered that I would like you and others from the CR to respond to is: "What specifically would the the Region have to do to gain your support again?"

(Art, my intention was not to hijack this thread. If this post should go elsewhere, please let me know.)

bygrace

Specifically (just my list off the top of my head and nothing official as I have no power other than as a member at my church):

1. STOP LYING!!! We want full and total disclosure of income and outflow from every department and we want the numbers to jive. There shouldn't be difference of even a few dollars between one report and another. They need to be accurate and complete.

2. We want money we send in for missions and specific salaries to go for missions and specific salaries and not for whatever you think the need is at this moment.

3. If you're going to allow teachings in the seminaries that are contradictory to traditional teachings (such as God can be either male OR female), at least have the decency to admit it. Don't write letters back and say "who says we do that?? Not that I know of but if you hear of someone who does teach that, let me know and I'll check into it." If you're being questioned, you need to go find out. That's what you are being asked to do. The inquirer shouldn't have to name names and be specific. It's enough that he/she has narrowed it down to your faculty. Go ask and reply honestly.

4. Stop acting like the churches are under the thumb of the general board. It should be the other way around. Those delegates we send to the Region meeting should be the ones who vote on the members of the general board and should act as representatives of the churches not as representatives of themselves regardless of what the churches want or believe.

5. Don't rearrange or ask the ABW to rearrange the Project to reflect your desire for wallpaper and a new kitchen to the detriment of Health Clinics in China. This one was a HUGE thorn in my foot personally. It's not that I don't think the Project should ever be wallpaper or a kitchen at the Topeka office but it was the year for an OVERSEAS project and you took half the money!! We could have sent $30,000 to China for much needed health clincs but Topeka insisted on $15,000 of that for wallpaper and a new kitchen. Surely the wallpaper could have waited a year!! I've been walking on threadbare carpet in my own home for a couple years now and I think I do more walking here than you do microwaving pizza at work!! This was especially frustrating after the missionary to China came and talked to the ABW Associations the spring before.

6. If you think churches should make their own decisions about homosexuality or adultery or even obesity, fine. But if they can do that, we can make our own decisions on where we send our money and should be allowed to do that without you frowning at us. And if we want to leave ABC, we should be able to leave with no questions asked and without asking if we can keep the building and grounds we worked, saved for a built.

7. No matter who you are or what your office, the buck should stop here. Don't blame someone else.

8. If you write a letter and then find out that it wasn't worded the way you intended and you're pretty sure it's going to get passed around--make a formal correction and pass it around. Don't just hope it will go away and pretend you didn't write it. And don't blame the secretary (see #7), that's your signature at the bottom.

I can't speak to other regions, but my problem with sending any money to Topeka isn't centered on "The Issue" but has far more components than just whether or not there are, have been or ever will be a Welcoming and Affirming Church in my region. It's more about where the money goes or doesn't go and whether you think we have sense or are nothing but cash cows. A lot of us really felt like you really thought of us as nothing but check-writing machines to whom you were not responsible.

bygrace wrote:
(Art, my intention was not to hijack this thread. If this post should go elsewhere, please let me know.)

bygrace

Since I started the thread, let me give you some additional information. VF is banking on a couple of things to turn the ship around nationally.

1. In the Pasadena Biennial next summer (yes, in the middle of TM!) the vote will be taken to eliminate the General Board and to adopt the "common table" restructure. Originally intended to provide a venue for execs and some of their key folks to sit around (at their own expense) and jaw about ministry and strategies for improvement, it has gradually morphed into a horse designed by a committee. Now there are reportedly something like 125-150 (???) people who will be entitled to come to the table. That sounds even more unwieldy than the old system. Still, by removing the legislative body from the ABC national structure, it SHOULD result in fewer obnoxious statements that tick off the churches. Gone will be the controversial political points of view trumpeted as the moral conscience of the ABC. It will not, however, stop program boards from making their own mischief (e.g., the recent "educational" materials on voting put out by National Ministries that will help you to decide to vote for the Democrat ticket).

2. The sale of the Mission Center to the national program boards will net several millions of dollars for the Office of the General Secretary. If invested wisely and utilized as a true endowment, it could generate nearly a million bucks in good times. That should immunize the OGS from ever running out of money, even if the churches all quit giving. It would, however, clip their wings a bit. Obviously there would not be enough money to fund some of the "out of the box" projects. This might keep the focus on basics of church and missions.

3. The people I talk to tell me that the hope is that when your region can affiliate, partner with, and utilize the services of what you want to without being bound by a restrictive covenant, it will allow the regions that want to go AWAB happy to follow their consciences unfettered by the conservatives and allow the conservative regions to ignore (by and large) the more offensive aspects of any other region.

This week the ABC of the Northwest, Growing Healthy Churches (aka ABCW), and TM are co-sponsoring an event for leading pastors from all three regions. Meeting in Idaho (?), it represents the kind of collaboration Art has been speaking about in his posts. I think the hope by both left and right execs is that under the new structure, everybody will be free to "do their own thing" without backlash from the "other side." Without a legislative General Board, there will be less marginal friction occasioned by ideological clashes. And, it would also allow Rochester and Chicago to team up with MA and promote gay-friendly ministries and conferences for churches.

Frankly, if this had been in place four years ago, we probably would not have seen a PSW withdrawal. However, we will need to wait to see if the proposed structure works as advertized. Judging by the past restructuring efforts in the ABC (e.g., SCODS, SCOR, etc.), I would not bet the farm on it . . . yet. Bygrace, is that enough to get your money back into the "family" or will you require more?

Hi folks,
Just visited with several folks from the CR. So sad to hear about the collapse. And the "I told them so" factor brings little comfort.
Ehart, I would suggest that faithful support of the ABC family means avoiding offices in Topeka. There are plenty of ways to work with the churches in your ABC association to promote the mission of the Kingdom. Be busy with that and the other stuff becomes seriously less relevent. If what I have heard in the last couple of days is true, a huge number of churches are doing just that. The amount of mission money given in Kansas may have actually increased. Just so much less is filtered through Topeka.
So a seperate question is, What can Topeka do to get back in the center of the family. My guess is that the people who helped arrange this catastrophe are still at the helm. While I wish the best for them, I would also guess that until the leadership changes the direction of Topeka will not change.
If the churches of the family want a central office that represents them, they may need to create a new one. Just a thought, but it may be more advantageous to focus on your association and what was once your area.

Meanwhiole, back to the thread... The news about the Fairness Doctrine was all over talk radio yesterday. It occurs to me that the whole notion of free speech is contradictory to both theological and political liberalism. There is an excellent book entitled Liberal Facism. I hadn't thought of applying its observations to theological liberalism until BL displayed its facist tendancies and until Dennis reminded us of the VF systems desire to shut people (or barking dogs) up. But it occurs to me that the left is so facist in theological circles as well.
FWIW
love,
Art

Want to hear the bad part of the ABC/CR stuff? Not all of us in the region know that it is happening!! As in when is it going to be made known!! Hey, I heard it here first!! Thank you I now get to ask questions!!